Anna Francis will be deliberating with Emily Speed, an artist working in sculpture, installation, drawing and artists’ books. Emily is on the shortlist for the Liverpool Art Prize 2010. The conversation will develop over the month – so be sure to check back periodically to see how it goes.

THE CONVERSATION

AF: Within your work you often use cheap and found materials and respond to some extent to surroundings. Then there seems to be the other things you do which are about talking about the value of the artist, recognition for this and activities which could be seen as activism, and encouraging activism in others (I hope you don’t mind that description.) How much do these two things inform each other, and is alot of your vocalism due to your experiences as a practitioner?

ES: I do respond to sites in my work and the last two years living in Liverpool amid much development has probably had quite a significant impact on my work. Also, despite my best attempts to work with more ‘proper’ materials, I keep going back to found things, especially packaging; I think it takes the preciousness out and lets you experiment without over thinking everything.
Looking at the ways artists can make a living and the value of arts has become an increasingly important part of what I do. I have always been suspicious of entry fees and badly-paid residencies and internships, but I had just accepted that this was the ways of the arts. Living in Liverpool has clarified a great deal about making a living as an artist for me, mainly because it’s fairly small and it has been easier for me to get involved here and gain some perspective on the art scene as a whole (as compared to London, where I was before). This has meant seeing how bad artists are -generally- at valuing what they do. I have also noticed that artists can be very accepting of conditions in the arts, as laid out by employers. I feel that they don’t think to question the way things are because they are constantly told they should grateful for doing what they love and are lucky to get work at all. My blog (on a-n) was born as a result of these observations, especially as I had been sucked into the same traps. Once you start looking at the problems facing artists, you begin to realise there are some deeply embedded issues because it has always been such an unregulated industry. I think I became more vocal about it because I never heard anyone talking about these things and it seemed that if artists all voiced their opinions it could be quite a powerful force for change. Often it’s not that artists are happy with their lot, they just haven’t thought that anything is wrong with their situation or had any expectations of making a proper living. I would like artists to be on a more level playing field (i.e. not so dependent on money to get ahead in the industry through voluntary work) and to get away from the old-fashioned image of artists having to suffer for their love of art.

I suppose this ‘activism’ (your words!) has had a fairly big impact on my own practice; I have become much better at valuing myself, my work and I am not afraid to ask for payment. I try not to apply for things I think are unfair or opportunities that are underpaid without other recompense. This all means a big shift in how my time is spent and make me much more efficient. I have also found that I am clearer about what I don’t want to be doing and this naturally leads me in the direction of things I do want!

Do you feel that artists in your area are talking about issues around making a living or that they have a strong sense of how to value their skills and knowledge?

AF: I really agree that the arts industries have been fairly unregulated, and that in some ways this has lead to artists not having a full understanding about our own value. It is something that we are talking about quite a bit recently in Stoke-on-Trent. There seems to be a lot of interest in ‘consulting artists and creative people’ on various things, and getting artists to ’share practice and ideas’ in the city. This has come from a recognition that there may be some worth in the role of art and culture in regenerating the city, and it seems like a sudden thing that our views and ideas are being sought out (just my perception perhaps?). It is a funny patch, in my opinion at the moment, because there still seems to be a misunderstanding about what we actually do, and what the value of that really is, so even though we may be very qualified, and have actually a lot of experience to offer, we are still to some extent expected to do things for free; and be grateful, as you say, for that. I think at the moment in Stoke-on-Trent there has not particularly been a recognition or full appreciation of the role of artists, and I do think it is us as artists that need to make sure we say, and keep saying that we are not just going to freely give our ideas (as this, in my mind, is our currency) and that if businesses, councils and other public realm professionals wish to draw on our (not insignificant) skills then these need to be remunerated – in one way or another. I think it would be really good, as a group to get together, and discuss this formally and perhaps create some sort of manifesto or something, because I don’t think that as an artistic community, we do have a strong sense of how to value our skills and knowledge at this time. It is something we are beginning to question – but I certainly feel it needs more attention.Do you have experience of instigating this sort of debate – or have any suggestions?

From my point of view, things look a little better on that score in Liverpool, is that just an outsiders perspective?

ES: It’s interesting reading the comments (thanks guys) and it seems these circumstances are easy to identify with. It can be astounding when you stop and think that sometimes everyone is getting paid but the artist/s. Like Rich says, opportunities can be worth it for other reasons; projects as loss leaders because they offer certain advantages, but you cannot make a living out of these. I think it is a mixture of people taking advantage (for example, big arts organisations using free labour because they can and perhaps their budgets are actually very tight) and misunderstandings. Anna, you mentioned the fact that artists are being consulted more frequently in Stoke-on-Trent these days, but these consultations may not be properly remunerated because those asking are not used to dealing with artists. Do you think this is because they just don’t know any better? At the start of these relationships I think its vital to give information about the way in which you work, how long things take and what your input is worth. These can be hard things to quantify, but if artists don’t tell people their costs, employers will carry on presuming there aren’t any.

The real difficulty here is that, in Liverpool for example, there are often too many artists for the (paid) work available.  So one person may speak up, but there are many more waiting behind who will work for free and why would anyone pay when they don’t have to?  This is where the discussion or manifesto you mentioned becomes especially important. Essentially, I think that boils down to having a union of sorts, which ensures some standards and educates artists about their own value. This would ideally stop people undercutting. Perhaps it doesn’t need to be a union; perhaps a formal agreement or manifesto is enough? This may also be something that is done well in localities and university education so that there is a shift in attitude among artists.

In terms of debate, I have found my blog on a-n the most effective tool so far. A local discussion is not something I have tried outside of my circle of friends and studio acquaintances but it will hopefully come up in the next Taxed event; a skill swap for artists (organised for artists with other artists based in Liverpool).  Sophie Hope has been involved in some interesting events addressing the issue including ‘Making a Living’ recently in London and Vienna. Likewise, the Carrotworkers’ Collective has just produced a guide to internships, although this largely applies to London. Perhaps these are things that can be replicated in Stoke-on-Trent by using the most appropriate parts?

As well as educating others about what artists do, I wonder if it might be equally important to educate artists about what they do too. What I mean by this is to try and cut down the learning process (Rich’s comments about applying for lots of things and working for free before he realised the situation fully certainly mirrors my own experience) by helping artists value their own work, skills and encouraging best practice. If we are self employed we are businesses after all  – so shouldn’t we act more like it? Do I practice what I preach? I’d like to, but I still have a long way to go in terms of pricing properly and managing the mix of paid and pro-bono work that I do  - but I have come a long way in the last year or two!

For the next Taxed skill swap, we have been looking at sharing practical knowledge. Participants have to give and receive a skill, which will hopefully make people realise they have something valuable to offer! We will also compile a list for an equipment pool among local studios and artists and try to help people keep in touch.  Would you add anything to that?

AF: We have just gone for and got some funding through to put on an event here in Stoke- because of this conversation – so it looks like we will be able to have the local dialogue you mention. I think it will be very interesting to see how that might work in generating some form of manifesto for artists in the city. I think though that to build things up through a blog is also a great approach – and yours is certainly reaching a wide audience, which is great. The other thought I had was to stage some sort of art strike – asking people not to make anything for a week – in protest at being undervalued – but I dont think we are in desperate measures just yet. Also, I feel that doing is always better than not doing.

I am also involved in a group called PPfC (Participatory Practitioners for Change) and am starting to organise a skill sharing event with other practitioners within that. The emphasis is on activity which leads to change in some way – and creating a space for exchange with other artists – so we can learn. There will be a conference/workshop day where participants are also practitioners/delegates, but each person delivering has to only do one slot, in order to give them a chance to learn something too.
I like the idea of Taxed- and the feeling of a supportive artistic community, where people can learn from each other rather than seeing each other as rivals. How did Taxed come about, how often do you meet, and have their been any tangible outcomes coming from it? I think this would be interesting just to look at the value (though perhaps obvious) of activity of this kind.

ES: Well done on the funding, I would be interested to see how the event turns out. It seems you might have an artistic community of a more manageable size to try this out; although Liverpool has a great community, it is still fairly disparate (and large). I agree that a strike wouldn’t work – there is no precedent for that and we would need a firm base of standards before standing up for them. Perhaps a ’say no to free labour’ approach instead?? I am thinking along the lines of the ‘Say no to strangers’ campaign from my primary school years now..

*****

TALKING CITY is Anna Francis’ Longhouse Guest Editor project, for March 2010.

Click here to go to the project page.